144 replies to this topic

[TheTone]

boutrosinit (GAF):

Quote

I saw the tech firsthand a year or 2 ago.

It's *much* more advanced than Eyetoy.

You can use props - a stick or even a dildo - and it will recognise and track that prop. It can recognise multiple people in the room and when I played with it then, I felt like it was what the Wii promised, but had not delivered.

Definitely a great piece of kit. Can't wait to see if EA integrates it into a FP mode for Fight Night 5.

[Hans]

If this were announced by Nintendo, anthony would be dogging it left and right. I remember last night he said something like, "this will only be good if it can detect the individual finger movements" or some shit like that. Guess he backpedaled on that one





Microsoft indeed, tone...

[TheTone]

hamsbot

run:/ dmg ctrl.


i was watching and laughing as you trolled every announcement in real time from the conf (on my phone). so predictable.

anyways, the Milo demo was what sold me on it's potential. i hope by 2010 they've resolved the lag issue though. it needs to be 1:1 for a games input device.



by 2010 the bugs will be ironed out and we'll still not be playing GT5.

Edited by anthony, 02 June 2009 - 04:56 AM.

[DopeyFish]

i was told the code for that specific avatar tracking hasn't been there for too long, so it glitched so what

yes, it does indeed track your individual finger movements

this is just an early technology demo. final hardware and software is a long ways off so things like the avatar glitch, and proper game balancing (so you don't have someone try hitting 5 balls at once like that asian chick did) won't happen again

[olimario]

DopeyFish, on 02 June 2009 - 04:56 AM, said:

i was told the code for that specific avatar tracking hasn't been there for too long, so it glitched so what

yes, it does indeed track your individual finger movements

this is just an early technology demo. final hardware and software is a long ways off so things like the avatar glitch, and proper game balancing (so you don't have someone try hitting 5 balls at once like that asian chick did) won't happen again

bubububububububububu

[Hans]

anthony, on 02 June 2009 - 04:55 AM, said:

hamsbot

run:/ dmg ctrl.


i was watching and laughing as you trolled every announcement in real time from the conf (on my phone). so predictable.

anyways, the Milo demo was what sold me on it's potential. i hope by 2010 they've resolved the lag issue though. it needs to be 1:1 for a games input device.



by 2010 the bugs will be ironed out and we'll still not be playing GT5.

I didn't troll every announcement. You see me trolling Splinter Cell or Alan Wake?

The Milo demo was a gimmick. You could do the same demo with a Wii mote without motion plus.

[DopeyFish]

olimario, on 02 June 2009 - 05:02 AM, said:

bubububububububububu

don't bu bu bu me dumbass, i even went to microsoft reps after it was announced to show my skepticism.

but there is a difference between being skeptical and being stupid. saying it's going to be a failure based off early hardware and even earlier software for a product that still goes by a codename. It's not a product by definition, yet. It's a vision. If you don't understand that, go back to playing your precious wii with your lack of context control system and your sub-par, half-assed games bu bu bu bu bitch

[DepthsAbove]

Hans, on 02 June 2009 - 04:45 AM, said:

My guess is that tech costs at least $100. You figure a decent webcam is probably $50 and that's without all the recognition tech. The question is whether MS will be willing to subsidize the cost and if it's an add-on, then you have to think the answer is no.

[olimario]

DopeyFish, on 02 June 2009 - 05:11 AM, said:

don't bu bu bu me dumbass, i even went to microsoft reps after it was announced to show my skepticism.

but there is a difference between being skeptical and being stupid. saying it's going to be a failure based off early hardware and even earlier software for a product that still goes by a codename. It's not a product by definition, yet. It's a vision. If you don't understand that, go back to playing your precious wii with your lack of context control system and your sub-par, half-assed games bu bu bu bu bitch

$200 with no tactile feedback on a $200 system that has been out for 3 years.
I hear... REVOLUTION!

[border]

ambler, on 02 June 2009 - 02:05 AM, said:

right. and you've played it so you know how it feels to play. the illusion of holding a gun is already broken by holding a controller which is not a gun. now you can hold your hand as a pistol, a shotgun, a grenade launcher, etc. which is more realistic than twiddling sticks and colored buttons on a plastic block. now you can turn your head to look around, lean around corners, etc.

So how do I turn around 180 degrees without actually turning around so I can't see the television set? How do I compensate for the .5-1.5 seconds of lag this thing obviously has? How do I play this game with both my arms extended for several hours without them cramping or getting sore?

The problem with this thing is that there's really no indication you can use it for functions important to even simple games - movement, camera adjustment, weapon switching. The reason people like games is because there's a level of abstraction that exists -- button presses turn into flashy combos. If you have to act out a combo or a weapon switch or any sort of secondary function, that doesn't really strike me as fun. Something as simple as jumping in a platformer or FPS becomes a huge hassle, and far less precise.

Does anyone remember Police 911, the Konami arcade rail shooter that employed a similar technology? You could lean and duck to get out of the way of bullets instead of using a paddle (as with Time Crisis)....but it got old after like 5-10 minutes. Which is fine for a gimmicky arcade title, but not a $60 console game. I love how people whine about "hand cramping controllers", but fail to consider the sort of repetitive stress injuries they might endure from having to squat and hold that position several times a minute. Any extended playtime and you're going to blow out your knees or just get winded and sick of it. You think holding "UP" to move forward on an analog pad for several hours cramps your hands.....and yet somehow you think it will be easier to hold your both arms outstretched in front of you for hours at a time?

I can see this thing having some interesting applications for minigames and stuff like that, but for serious titles it's even more useless than the Wii.

Edited by border, 02 June 2009 - 05:31 AM.

[Hans]

border, on 02 June 2009 - 05:28 AM, said:

So how do I turn around 180 degrees without actually turning around so I can't see the television set? How do I compensate for the .5-1.5 seconds of lag this thing obviously has? How do I play this game with both my arms extended for several hours without them cramping or getting sore?

The problem with this thing is that there's really no indication you can use it for functions important to even simple games - movement, camera adjustment, weapon switching. The reason people like games is because there's a level of abstraction that exists -- button presses turn into flashy combos. If you have to act out a combo or a weapon switch or any sort of secondary function, that doesn't really strike me as fun. Something as simple as jumping in a platformer or FPS becomes a huge hassle, and far less precise.

Does anyone remember Police 911, the Konami arcade rail shooter that employed a similar technology? You could lean and duck to get out of the way of bullets instead of using a paddle (as with Time Crisis)....but it got old after like 5-10 minutes. Which is fine for a gimmicky arcade title, but not a $60 console game. I love how people whine about "hand cramping controllers", but fail to consider the sort of repetitive stress injuries they might endure from having to squat and hold that position several times a minute. Any extended playtime and you're going to blow out your knees or just get winded and sick of it. You think holding "UP" to move forward on an analog pad for several hours cramps your hands.....and yet somehow you think it will be easier to hold your both arms outstretched in front of you for hours at a time?

I can see this thing having some interesting applications for minigames and stuff like that, but for serious titles it's even more useless than the Wii.

I think you basically, for lack of a better term, nailed it.

[DopeyFish]

olimario, on 02 June 2009 - 05:23 AM, said:

$200 with no tactile feedback on a $200 system that has been out for 3 years.
I hear... REVOLUTION!

how are you losing tactile feedback? read the post all the way at the top of the page!

you can use objects as equipment/controls for a game

so by your logic the wii doesn't have tactile feedback or context to the control? really nice, oli. or does it really need to vibrate and you really need to press buttons for you to classify it as tactile feedback? what the hell is restricting your movement of the wiimote (in terms of negative forces) when you're playing wii sports besides the air and your TV screen when the wrist cord breaks?

[Hans]

How do I point a gun and move at the same time?

Do I walk in place?

On the Wii Mote, I can use the analog stick and then point with the Wii mote.

How the fuck does Microsoft's device work for a first person shooter?

[olimario]

Rumble enhances the Wii's feel tenfold.
Turn off rumble and you just feel completely disconnected, especially when interacting with the pointer.

Dopey-
I think it's cool that you work for/with MS or whatever, but the demonstration of this tech was a failure and the PURE CG trailer for it didn't help at all. It might work better in the future and might have some great gaming applications, but it's going to have to come with every system from launch to make an impact.

[border]

Hans, on 02 June 2009 - 05:41 AM, said:

How do I point a gun and move at the same time?

Do I walk in place?

To be fair, this was already explained. Movement would be controlled by your left arm, with the gun held in your right. Move your left arm forward to move forward, pull it back to backpedal.....slide it left or right to strafe. Of course, several problems remain when you consider a game like Halo. How will you dual-wield? How will you throw a grenade from your left hand if it already controls the movement? You won't.

The bigger problem is just the stress that comes from all this stuff....having your arms stretched out for long periods, having to duck and tilt frequently. The beauty of a controller is that a small motion in your hand translates to a big reaction onscreen. But if I have to make a big motion to get a big reaction, is that really fun? Is that something I want to spend a lot of time doing?

Another obvious question would be "How do I jump?" The obvious answer would be "Make your body jump". But do I really want to play a game like Mario or Mirror's Edge and have to physically jump every time I want my character to jump? Once the novelty wears off, all you're going to do is have a pair of seriously strained knees.

[Everdred]

I think the tech looks absolutely amazing, especially the Milo demo (and to quote demi, "PEDO PARADISE"). It's amazing how much it can recognize and process, and the possibilities for certain types of games (like the aforementioned pedo-stalking sim) is amazing. However, as others have stated, it also lacks a lot of practical functionality for a great deal of games. It runs into some of the same problems Wii does, and a whole lot more. Moreover, it's essentially doomed to failure as it's being released as an add-on to an already not-so-popular system. As such, I don't expect to see much of worth coming out until the next Xbox is released.

The best possible usage for such tech in games, I think, would be to combine it with a similar set-up to the wiimote + nunchuk (except with both parts not connected). Thus you can have the amazing variety of movement recognized, but at the same time still have the more practical things covered--pressing buttons and moving yourself via analog stick--as well as the added pointer functionality (which is certainly much better for menu navigation than waving your arm in the air).

[Everdred]

border, on 02 June 2009 - 05:56 AM, said:

To be fair, this was already explained. Movement would be controlled by your left arm, with the gun held in your right. Move your left arm forward to move forward, pull it back to backpedal.....slide it left or right to strafe.

Movement like that seems to go against everything which the tech is supposed to bring to games--realistic movement. I sure as fuck don't walk around by moving my left arm, and I can imagine it'd be incredibly awkward even without taking into account your gripes with stress.

[Boober]

Games dont have to use motion control exclusively do they? For example you play the game with a regular controller but can also use voice commands or motions for specific things.

Edited by Boober, 02 June 2009 - 06:14 AM.

[Hans]

border, on 02 June 2009 - 05:56 AM, said:

To be fair, this was already explained. Movement would be controlled by your left arm, with the gun held in your right. Move your left arm forward to move forward, pull it back to backpedal.....slide it left or right to strafe. Of course, several problems remain when you consider a game like Halo. How will you dual-wield? How will you throw a grenade from your left hand if it already controls the movement? You won't.

The bigger problem is just the stress that comes from all this stuff....having your arms stretched out for long periods, having to duck and tilt frequently. The beauty of a controller is that a small motion in your hand translates to a big reaction onscreen. But if I have to make a big motion to get a big reaction, is that really fun? Is that something I want to spend a lot of time doing?

Another obvious question would be "How do I jump?" The obvious answer would be "Make your body jump". But do I really want to play a game like Mario or Mirror's Edge and have to physically jump every time I want my character to jump? Once the novelty wears off, all you're going to do is have a pair of seriously strained knees.

Moving forward by pushing my left arm forward? what the fuck? that's not a very good explanation, that'd be awful. My arm can only move so far while I'm sitting on the couch.

[DopeyFish]

i'll try to tackle the fps controls since it's the most difficult.

remember... this thing can track finger movements too, and it tracks a full skeletal structure of yourself, basically. tracks 48 different parts of you, top that off with depth and you have a ridiculous amount of control

the best i can imagine at this moment is a mixture of context and lack of context controls (though a lot of this stuff can be changed for audible commands, i would rather attack a silent gaming approach first)

so right hand, for example is your aim, you extend your arm out, use your index finger as a trigger, to reload you just open your fist and close again. to change weapons you move your arm back (fold it) and then move your hand left or right to change weapons (this would work better with halo type game instead of a game with 10 weapons, that would require more effort and probably a different control scheme)

your right hand, if rotated left or right when extended would be a turn right/left command

left hand would be movement. you keep your arm at your waist. you move your hand forward and back for walking backwards and forwards, move it left to right for strafing and up and down for looking up and down. (think of these movements as replacing a stick instead of something like a mouse, so moving left a little would require you to move right a little again to correct if you made an error) grenade? you close your first, that disengages the movement control and you hold your hand up and then throw a grenade like usual, that's when motion capture kicks in and tracks where you're throwing the thing - tilting your left hand/wrist up can do jumping

i'm still trying to figure out what could be done for a two handed weapon approach, since you'd lose sight of your trigger finger if free aiming was allowed, and head tracking and/or your legs would have to get involved too. i dunno.

either way i know it sounds stupid but stand up and give it a shot, i think (as a hardcore fps gamer) that it would work, with pretty good efficiency.

Edited by DopeyFish, 02 June 2009 - 06:28 AM.

[ChumsGum]

imo, i think this natal will be vaporware until it's integrated into a console in 2012. i don't think this tech will make it for the current 360. don't get me wrong, i think the tech is awesome but i'd like to see this come out for pc for some minority report style web browsing on my large screen HDTV.

[DopeyFish]

ChumsGum, on 02 June 2009 - 06:32 AM, said:

imo, i think this natal will be vaporware until it's integrated into a console in 2012. i don't think this tech will make it for the current 360. don't get me wrong, i think the tech is awesome but i'd like to see this come out for pc for some minority report style web browsing on my large screen HDTV.

they need to make an interface designed entirely for this tech

it would be beyond awesome

[border]

DopeyFish, on 02 June 2009 - 06:20 AM, said:

i'll try to tackle the fps controls since it's the most difficult.

The primary problem is that FPS controls are pretty much the same controls for almost every action game whether it's first or third person. The Natal tries to simplify controls by making everything context-related, and a control scheme that constantly switches back and forth between context controls and non-context gestures only makes things more complex than they were before. Which defeats the purpose of the device to start with. You did an okay job of coming up with a control setup for FPS games, but can you imagine trying to explain that to someone that doesn't normally play games, or even trying to cram it all into an in-game tutorial for someone that does?

The other problem is that you assume this thing is really capable of detecting super-minute movements perfectly. The Natale shit bricks when Kudo lifted his foot to try and show the bottom of his shoe, so at this point I don't think it's being unfairly cynical to say it might not pick up on tiny trigger-finger motions for shooting. Think about it in literal terms of what is happening....it's a single camera, placed directly in front of the player. Imagine you are seeing through the camera....do you think you can really tell a difference between when the player's finger pulls back slightly to pull a trigger, and when it's moved forward slightly to signify that the trigger is not being pulled? I might believe it if they said Natale was using sonar or something that could really detect depth reliably.....but if it's just a camera, then I don't get it because someone with their finger forward isn't going to look that different than someone with their finger pulled slightly back. It reminds me of the Wii remote, where people thought we'd be having lightsaber duels shortly after launch, but here we are two years in and nothing requiring that level of precision has come out yet.

There's a reason this technology was demoed with games that only require really broad, obvious movements. It's probably a bit generous to assume finger movement can be easily tracked when at this point when they can't even track arm/body movement without some degree of lag.

Edited by border, 02 June 2009 - 07:31 AM.

[ohmyxxx]

Bitchwax, on 01 June 2009 - 07:54 PM, said:

It can track everything. Head movement is a cert.

I mean like this-



If it can do this then its pretty cool

[border]

The TrackIR video is interesting because it showcases heavy sim-based applications of motion tracking, while most of the console manufacturers are only interested in demonstrating ultra-casual applications. My main question is whether it's really necessary to hook up this gadget to give players the ability to adjust their view while keeping their aim static. Couldn't you accomplish the exact same thing by using a "Freelook" button? For instance, hold down MOUSE3 and you go into freelook mode....allowing you to look around with the mouse without altering your gun's aim....let go of the MOUSE3 button and you snap back into normal aiming mode. How would that be any different than using some peripheral?

[ohmyxxx]

border, on 02 June 2009 - 08:09 AM, said:

The TrackIR video is interesting because it showcases heavy sim-based applications of motion tracking, while most of the console manufacturers are only interested in demonstrating ultra-casual applications. My main question is whether it's really necessary to hook up this gadget to give players the ability to adjust their view while keeping their aim static. Couldn't you accomplish the exact same thing by using a "Freelook" button? For instance, hold down MOUSE3 and you go into freelook mode....allowing you to look around with the mouse without altering your gun's aim....let go of the MOUSE3 button and you snap back into normal aiming mode. How would that be any different than using some peripheral?

If it works like in the demovid(which i doubt, its probably complete crap like the rest of em). it would be pretty cool. Being able to freely look where ever you want using your natural head movement seems pretty immersive to me.

your tv would suddently become an window into another world rather than a static screen.

you can see more of simmelar things here

[DopeyFish]

trust me it tracks minute movements even down to fingers... it was the avatar track software that was fucking up, not the natal - it was really new code

[Sambain]

Wow. Microsoft has successfully created a gimmick bigger than the Mini-disc. Natal is reminiscent of GM creating the Saturn brand to counter Japanese imports. As expected, just like when GM fans swooned over Saturn, Xbox owners are swooning over what is clearly a gimmick. If Microsoft want's to be taken seriously outside of their FPS loving fanbase, they need to create something new and different. BTW, I'm surprised that I haven't seen a Balance Board copy from Microsoft as yet.

[Everdred]

border, on 02 June 2009 - 07:29 AM, said:

I might believe it if they said Natale was using sonar or something that could really detect depth reliably.....but if it's just a camera, then I don't get it because someone with their finger forward isn't going to look that different than someone with their finger pulled slightly back.

The wikipedia articles says it has both an RGB camera and a depth sensor which "consists of an infrared projector combined with a monochrome CMOS sensor." I don't know much about such tech, so I don't know how well such a setup can detect depth, but take that for what you will.

Edited by Everdred, 02 June 2009 - 08:34 AM.

[ambler]

border, on 02 June 2009 - 05:28 AM, said:

So how do I turn around 180 degrees without actually turning around so I can't see the television set?

you could say: "one-eighty"

border, on 02 June 2009 - 05:28 AM, said:

How do I compensate for the .5-1.5 seconds of lag this thing obviously has?

like i said before, they just bought the company 6 months ago. the thing isn't coming out tomorrow. no doubt they are working on the lag as nintendo had to do with the wiimote

border, on 02 June 2009 - 05:28 AM, said:

How do I play this game with both my arms extended for several hours without them cramping or getting sore?

hold your arms out? who says you'd have to do that? in the race car tech demo all acceleration was done by mimicking putting her foot down on the pedal. the game can detect tiny movements. the milo demo can detect if you have bags under your eyes and will ask "are you tired". i'm not a game designer but you have to be a little more open-minded. when infinity ward and epic make a fps using only natal the controls will be revolutionary, Minority Report-easy, and a level of control that has never been imagined